Ho hum

Allison & Will .. sorry, but I think you're both demonstrating precisely the sort of narrow minded smugness that the originator of this thread was perhaps kinda alluding to .. s/he posts research they've done .. you both (well, Will especially) respond with name calling .. oh well.

Here's some more research, which you'll likely both ignore too I guess ~ ever stop then to wonder why so many people around the world distrust you guys so much ~ your 'responses' kinda show why, I'm afraid :( ..

U.S. MEDDLING ABROAD .. FOR BETTER OR FOR WORSE??

Below is a list of countries that the American CIA has in some pronounced way interfered with. In most cases it is obvious both America and the country would be better off today if we had not interfered; hundreds of thousands of lives were lost and billions of American tax payer dollars spent with negative results.

The list is drawn from the site: http.://pw1.netcom.com/~ncoic/cia_info.htm

It was in chronological order but has been rearranged by this site into alphabetical order to facilitate this site's comments that follow certain countries in the list. Only a small percentage of the countries have been commented on due to time limitations.

1979: AFGHANISTAN. Military aid to rebel forces of Zia Nezri, Zia Khan Nassry, Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, Sayed Ahmed Gailani and conservative mullahs to overthrow government of Hafizullah Amin.

1980-1984: AFGHANISTAN. Continuing military aid to same rebel groups to harass Soviet occupation forces and challenge legitimacy of government of Babrak Karmal.

Many millions of tax payer dollars spent. Thousands of people killed (partially blame the old USSR on this). The very fundamentalist Taliban is in power because of America, the human rights violations are beyond belief, especially to women; the country is unstable and humanitarian aid costs to refugees escalates.

1960: ANGOLA. Financial and military assistance to rebel forces of Holden Roberto.

1975: ANGOLA. Military assistance to forces of Holden Roberto and Jonas Savimbi to defeat forces of Popular Movement for the Liberation of Angola (MPLA) during Angolan civil war, and prevent MPLA from forming new government.

1976-1984: ANGOLA. Financial and military assistance to forces of Jonas Savimbi to harass and destabilize Neto and succeeding governments.

1975: AUSTRALIA. Propaganda and political pressure to force dissolution of labor government of Gough Whitlam.

Whitlam was one of the more benevolent Prime Ministers in Australia's modern history but he made the mistake of suggesting that the government might not renew the lease on the American super-secret satellite station in Australia; England also played a big part in this interference in Australian affairs.

1982: BOLIVIA. Military coup to overthrow government of Celso Torrelio.

1962-1964: BRAZIL. Organized campaign of labor strike and propaganda to overthrow government of Joao Goulart.

1964: BRAZIL, GUATEMALA, URUGUAY, DOMINICAN REPUBLIC. Provided training in assassination and interrogation techniques for police and intelligence personnel. In Brazil thousands of people were "disappeared", a long-term economically inept military dictatorship ensued, and the country is only in recent years digging itself out of the mess.

1949-1961: BURMA. Supported 12,000 Nationalist China troops in Burma under General Li Mi as an incursion force into People's Republic of China.

We have been the main arms supplier to the military dictatorship. "General Ne Win has ruled Burma with an iron grip since 1962. In the late 1980s grassroots opposition to military rule mounted steadily. In 1988, thousands of citizens filled the streets of the capital Rangoon and other cities calling for democratic reforms. Popular protests became so widespread the military could only put them down by killing thousands of unarmed civilians. Then, hoping to quiet dissent, the government committed a strategic blunder by agreeing to permit national elections.

In the 1990 elections, the National League for Democracy (NLD), led by Nobel Peace Prize winner Aung San Suu Kyi, won more than 80 percent of the vote. But the military-sporting the unlikely name of SLORC (State Law and Order Restoration Council)-annulled the election results and placed Ms. Suu Kyi under 5 years of house arrest.

Among its many crimes the SLORC is also a major source of the heroin that is destroying lives in communities across the United States. The US State Department reported in 1996 that, 'Burma continues to provide the bulk of the world's opium supply and is the source of over 60 percent of the heroin seized on US streets'".

From: http://www.globalexchange.org/education/publications/newsltr3.97p1.html#Burma

"Ten years after the 1988 pro-democracy uprising was crushed by the army, Burma continued to be one of the world’s pariah states. A standoff between the government and Daw Aung San Suu Kyi, general secretary of the opposition National League for Democracy (NLD), and other expressions of nonviolent dissent resulted in more than 1,000 detentions during the year. Many were relatively brief, others led eventually to prison sentences. Human rights abuses, including extrajudicial executions, rape, forced labor, and forced relocations, sent thousands of Burmese refugees, many of them from ethnic minority groups, into Thailand and Bangladesh." From: http://www.igc.org/hrw/worldreport99/asia/burma.html

1959: CAMBODIA. Attempted Assassination of Prince Norodum Shianouk.

1967-1971: CAMBODIA. Under Projects Daniel Boone and Salem House, sabotage and ambush missions by United States Special Forces personnel and Meo tribesmen.

1969-1970: CAMBODIA. Bombing campaign to crush Viet Cong sanctuaries in Cambodia.

1970: CAMBODIA. Overthrew government of Prince Norodom Sihanouk. From testimony that occurred during the congressional hearings, it was divulged by external sources that the CIA and military played a role in aiding the Khmer Rouge, because it was rationalized that they served as some balance of power to North Vietman, even though both were communists, we did not want the North Vietnamese to expand into Cambodian.

The Khmer Rouge were the architects of the "Killing Fields", the tortured death of 2 million Cambodians. Considered to be the worst genocide since the genocide of Jews during World War II. When North Vietnam expelled a large segment of the Khmer Rouge, they were looked on as saviors by the Cambodians, even though the Cambodians and Vietnamese were not historically friendly.

COLOMBIA Our most recent mistake. "The Colombian government has not complied with the human rights conditions contained in the recently-passed $1.3 billion aid package signed by President Clinton". Human Rights Watch said, "One of the key conditions is the enforcement of the 1997 Constitutional Court ruling that armed forces personnel alleged to have committed human rights violations be prosecuted in civilian courts.

The military court system, notorious for shielding military perpetrators of abuse from justice, poses a crucial obstacle to the effective prosecution of human rights crimes. As Human Rights Watch pointed out in its meetings with the State Department, military officers who have committed serious abuses are routinely acquitted and dozens of prominent human rights cases remain in impunity. Meanwhile, high-ranking officers who maintain close ties to paramilitary killers remain in command of troops." From: http://www.hrw.org/reports/2000/Colombia/

1982: CHAD. Military assistance to Hissen Habre to overthrow government of Goukouni Oueddei.

1961: CONGO. Precipitated conditions leading to assassination of Patrice Lumumba.

1964: CONGO. Financial and military assistance, including B-26 and T-28 aircraft, and American and exiled Cuban pilots, for Joseph Mobutu and Cyril Adoula, and later for Moise Tshombe in Katanga, to defeat rebel forces loyal to Lumumba.

1964: CHILE. $20 million in assistance for Eduardo Frei to defeat Salvador Allende in Chilean elections.

1970-1973: CHILE. Campaign of assassinations, propaganda, labor strikes and demonstrations to overthrow government of Salvador Allende. "...in 1970, the CIA began covert political operations against the government of Allende under express orders from President Richard Nixon and his National Security Assistant, Dr. Henry Kissinger..." from: http://pw1.netcom.com/~ncoic/cia_info.htm

General Pinochet, who we helped install as the military dictator, during his long rein of terror, tortured and kill thousands of Chileans. He even violated American sovereignty by ordering the assassination of Chilean critics living in the United States. The Chilean people are finally rid of Pinochet and he may even stand trial for the crimes against his own people.

1956: CUBA. Established anti-Communist police force, Buro de Represion Actividades Communistas (BRAC) under Batista regime.

1961-1963: CUBA. Attempted assassination of Fidel Castro. Six attempts in this period.

1961: CUBA. Trained personnel and supported invasion force of Cuban exiles to overthrow Castro government, and assisted in their invasion at the Bay of Pigs.

1961-1966: CUBA. Broad sabotage program, including terrorist attacks on coastal targets and bacteriological warfare, in effort to weaken Castro government. All of these efforts have only raised Castro's status in Central and South America, and caused hardship for the Cuban people.

1953: COSTA RICA. Attempted overthrow government of Jose Figueres.

1961: DOMINICAN REPUBLIC. Precipitated conditions leading to assassination of Rafael Trujillo.

1980: DOMINICA. Financial support to Freedom Party of Eugenia Charles to defeat Oliver Seraphim in Dominican elections.

EAST TIMOR (see Indonesia)

1961: ECUADOR. Overthrew government of Hose Velasco Ibarra

1963: ECUADOR. Overthrew government of Carlos Julio Arosemena.

1956: EGYPT. Overthrow Nasser government. One of the many destablizing actions we have undertaken in the Middle East, and the tax payers are still paying heavily.

1963-1984: EL SALVADOR. Organized ORDEN and ANSESAL domestic intelligence networks under direction of General Jose Alberto Medrano and Colonel Nicolas Carranza, and provide intelligence support and training in surveillance, interrogation and assassination techniques.

1984: EL SALVADOR. $1.4 million in financial support for the Presidential election campaign of Jose Napoleon Duarte. Miillions of tax payer dollars, thousands of civilians tortured and dead, including American nuns (raped, tortured and killed) and still no justice because we are on the side of the thugs.

1980: GRENADA. Mercenary coup to overthrow government of Maurice Bishop.

1946: GREECE. Restored monarch after overthrow of Metaxas government.

1949: GREECE. Military assistance to military forces, in Greek civil war. Greece suffered with a military dictorship for years due to our efforts.

1954: GUATEMALA. Overthrow government of Jacobo Arbenz Guzman and replace with Carlos Castillo Armas.

1982: GUATEMALA. Military coup to overthrow government of Angel Anibal Guevara. In Guatemala, the Historical Clarification Commission charged with investigating human rights violations during more than 35 years of civil war, presented its findings. According to the Commission, the army was responsible for 93 percent of all massacres, tortures, disappearances and killings. Left-wing guerillas of the Guatemalan National Revolutionary Union were blamed for 3 percent of all abuses.

The Commission also accused the US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) of directly and indirectly sponsoring illegal state operations during the armed conflict. More than 200,000 people died or disappeared during the civil war which lasted from 1960 until 1996 when the government and the guerillas signed a peace accord. The relatives and human rights groups don't expect much from the report because the commission received almost no co-operation from the government and the military. From:http://www.rnw.nl/humanrights/html/guatamala.html

1980: GUYANA. Assassinated opposition leader Walter Rodney to consolidate power of government of Forbes Burnham.

1958: INDONESIA. Financial and military assistance, including B-26 bombers, for rebel forces attempting to overthrow Sukarno government.

1965: INDONESIA. Organized campaign of propaganda to overthrow Sukarno government, and precipitate conditions leading to massacre of more than 500,000 members of Indonesian Communist Party, in order to eliminate opposition to new Suharto government.

And EAST TIMOR. The Indonesian occupation has been extraordinarily bloody, resulting in the deaths of more than 200,000 Timorese, out of a pre-invasion population of approximately 600,000. A recent AP story noted that an "estimated 2,000 Indonesian troops have died fighting separatist guerrillas since Indonesia invaded East Timor in 1975," but failed to note the massive numbers of Timorese who have perished.

Others seemed to confuse the deaths caused by the occupation with those caused by the resistance movement. ABC News' Charles Gibson said that "It's been an extraordinary violent independence movement there with hundreds of thousands of people killed" (Good Morning America, 8/31/99). Secondly, news consumers are not informed that the U.S. backed Indonesia's invasion of East Timor. President Gerald Ford and Secretary of State Henry Kissinger visited the Indonesian capital of Jakarta in December 1975, just before the invasion was launched, where they were told of Suharto's plans to attack the island (Washington Post, 11/9/79).

The following month, a State Department official told a major Australian newspaper (The Australian, 1/22/76) that "in terms of the bilateral relations between the U.S. and Indonesia, we are more or less condoning the incursion into East Timor… The United States wants to keep its relations with Indonesia close and friendly. We regard Indonesia as a friendly, non-aligned nation--a nation we do a lot of business with." Daniel Patrick Moynihan, who was then the U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations wrote in his memoirs (A Dangerous Place) that "the Department of State desired that the United Nations prove utterly ineffective in whatever measures it undertook" to reverse the invasion. "This task was given to me and I carried it forward with no inconsiderable success," Moynihan reported. Finally, according to the State Department, 90 percent of the weapons used in the invasion came from the United States. Two years later, as the atrocities in East Timor were reaching a peak, President Jimmy Carter authorized an addition $112 million in weapons sales to Indonesia. From: http://www.fair.org/activism/east-timor-context.html

1953: IRAN. Overthrew Mossadegh government and installed Shah Zahedi.

1979: IRAN. Attempted to install military government to replace Shah and resist growth of Moslem fundamentalism.

The Mossadegh government which we overthrew, which than led to the Shah, then led to the Fundamentalist Government which now rules Iran. If one knows the details of this period of history, it is obvious that both the United States economic interests, security interests and the Iranian people's human rights interests would have been better served if the US had never overthrown Mossadegh.

The report on the overthrow of Mossadegh by the CIA, was recently declassified and printed in the New York Times. (see http://www.ccc.de/mirrors/cryptome.org/cia-iran-all.htm)

1976: JAMAICA. Attempted military coup to overthrow government of Michael Manley.

1979-1980: JAMAICA. Financial pressure to destabilize government of Michael Manley, and campaign propaganda and demonstrations to defeat it in elections.

1982: JORDAN. Military assistance to equip and train two Jordanian brigades as an Arab strike force to implement United States policy objectives without Israeli assistance.

1960: LAOS. Military assistance, including 400 United States Special Forces troops, to deny the Plain of Jars bad Mekong Basin to Pathet Lao.

1961-1965: LAOS. Average of $300 million annually to recruit and maintain L'Armee Clandestine of 35,000 Hmong and Meo tribesmen and 17,000 Thai mercenaries in support of government of Phoumi Nosavan to resist Pathet Lao.

1965-1971: LAOS. Under Operations Shining Brass and Prairie Fire, sabotage and ambush missions by United States Special Forces personnel and Nung and Meo tribesmen under General Bang Pao.

1981-1984: LIBYA. Broad campaign of economic pressure, propaganda, military maneuvers in Egypt, Sudan and Gulf of Sidra, and organization if Libyan Liberation Front exiles to destabilize government of Muammar Qaddafi.

1995: MEXICO The United States role in helping to bring the PRI to power is well known; but the modern CIA can not be easily indicted for the Mexican human rights abuses. The US Military and at least one American bank have played a significant role in human rights abuses.

The following two links will give an overview of recent involvement. http://www.earthisland.org/eijournal/spring98/sp98d_fe.htm "This is the memo that you weren't supposed to read. This was written by an analyst for Chase Manhattan Bank. You'll read in it that the author is recommending eliminating the Zapatistas (!) and fixing elections - anything to protect investments. Even killing people. It's a truly disturbing document. It should have brought indictments down upon the author and the bank. But instead, the media let this past almost unacknowledged. Read and learn how corporations think about the rest of the world, in purely economic terms, to the detriment of the native peoples' interests. see http://www.connix.com/~harry/chase-me.htm

1980-1984: NICARAGUA. Military assistance to Adolfo Colero Portocarrero, Alfonso Robelo, Alfonso Callejas, Fernando Chamorro Rappacioli, Eden Pastora Gomez, Adrianna Guillen, Steadman Fagoth and former Somoza National Guard officers, to recruit, train and equip anti-Sandinista forces for sabotage and terrorist incursions into Nicaragua from sanctuaries in Honduras and Costa Rica, in effort to destabilize government of Daniel Ortega Saavedra.

Thousands of innocent people dead, an economy in worse shape then before the secret war began and millions of tax payer dollars wasted.

1964-1971: NORTH VIETNAM. Sabotage and ambush missions under Operations Plan 34A by United States Special Forces and Nung tribesmen.

1953: PHILLIPINES. Assassination and propaganda campaign to overcome Huk resistance and install government of Ramon Magsaysay.

This led to corrupt Marcos dictatorship which looted the Phillipine treasury and created long term instability.

1965: PERU. Provided training in assassination and interrogation techniques for Peruvian police and intelligence personnel, similar to training given in Uruguay, Brazil and Dominican Republic, in effort to defeat resistance movement.

1975: PORTUGAL. Overthrew government of General Vasco dos Santos Goncalves.

1954: SOUTH VIETNAM. Installed government of Ngo Dinh Diem.

1963: SOUTH VIETNAM. Precipitated conditions leading to assassination of Ngo Dinh Diem.

1964-1967: SOUTH VIETNAM. Phoenix Program to eliminate Viet Cong political infrastructure through more than 20,000 assassinations. One of our most costly mistakes. Currently we have reasonable relations with the same government that we spent billions of dollars trying to defeat, lost tens of thousands of American's lives and devasted a country, to what productive end? We could have been where we are today with Vietnam decades ago without all the suffering.

1962: THAILAND. Brigade of 5,000 United States Marines to resist threat to Thai government from Pathet Lao.

1965: THAILAND. Recruited 17,000 mercenaries to support Laotian government of Phoumi Nosavan resisting Pathet Lao.

As might be deduced from the information above, a significant reason for many interferences in foreign lands is to support our arms export businesses.

Military Arms Export and Military Foreign Aid: The United States accounted for roughly half of all arms exports worldwide from 1993 through 1995, the last year for which reliable estimates are available. Most US weapons exports went to U.S. allies in the eastern Mediterranean, the Middle East, and East Asia. ''We sell weapons; we give weapons away; we provide financing to buy weapons,'' says Joan Whelan, the report's author. ''And then once the weapons are used, we spend billions of dollar to try to clean up the aftermath.''

Of the total amount of aid provided in 1997, roughly 27 percent, or about 3.7 billion dollars, was devoted to straight military assistance and training, and another 22 percent, or just over three billion dollars, went to a more ambiguous category called ''security aid.''

In the late 1980s, US military and security aid accounted for roughly two-thirds of all aid.

~~~~~